LLD101

SoaringSquirrel · Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 1549 0.00 Silvarrr

The very best BvC's tear even pure grief/exile smiters to pieces, and V/T's stand less of a chance. And if you're shift-smiting against any good BvC as a smiter, you're already screwed to begin with. All they have to do is time their triangle whirling correctly and you're finished. Even if the smiter knows how to duel against barbs, he's still at a disadvantage because the barb can kill him much faster than he can kill the barb, and if the barb is lazy, he can just grab a Doom axe and it's game over.

There is also no character that will "DESTROY" a hammerdin, either. They may have trouble with a very skilled bowzon, but you can easily overcome that by either equipping a grief or a doom and simply charging them and/or smiting them to death.

Other characters are versatile, and may be more effective towards specific characters, such as a wind druid against a CS zon, but overall, these two are the most versatile and flexible HLDs that can adapt to any given situation, as well as take care of themselves in public free for alls or gang-up situations.

destructojoe · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject:

LiveChaldean · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:57 pm Post subject:

wat exactly is a V/T?? and how do you shift-smite and namelock?

destructojoe · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject:

destructojoe · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:40 pm Post subject:

Ehhh · Joined: 06 Feb 2005 Posts: 689 0.00 Silvarrr

kouky · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:02 pm Post subject:

i don't think there is an ultimate high level dueler...the only ones i find to be slightly less efficient are...sorcs, as they can be sorbed pretty easily...cs zons are iffy, and sometimes pure ls trapsins that just spam mb. im going to be VERY general so don't flame me, but the rest of the classes do a pretty good job at what they do. paladins are solid with hammers that cant be sorbed/blocked,charge to desynch,smite,zeal,etc., barbs are massive tanks, druids are pretty versatile with cyclone, phy/cold dmg, summons to take hits,bowzons can be seriously dmging now with faith and everything else.

destructojoe · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject:

Twisted-Prodigy · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject:

5k life before b/o with out oak or bo, sounds a little bit sketchy but thats just my opinon..... i say 3.5k is decent, my pally is lvl 92 and yes he could use a rebuild and have 4k life easly with b/o.... but not even 5k life with b/o.....

i can probably get 5k life with oak and b/o yes. but not with out that......

lmao, i would like to see a screen shot of a character with 5k before b/o and no oak.....

Ehhh · Joined: 06 Feb 2005 Posts: 689 0.00 Silvarrr

Perhaps when you heard that a pally should have 4k life, the person meant post-bo. If you're unsure, you shouldn't post such crazy things like you know for a fact Wink

I don't even think a barb can hit 5k life pre-bo.

I agree that the barb should come out on top in a duel between two top duelers. If we're talking about two mediocre duelers with mediocre gear setups, then I would favor the v/t because it's fairly simple to use and doesn't require expensive duped rings/boots to remain effective against a barb.

With an unlimited budget and skill, I would have to say a BvC or BvA with same skill setup and max block would qualify as ultimate duelers. There is absolutely nothing that a BvC or BvA cannot kill. There are tough matchups, but I'd say they go at least 50/50 with any character. Something that can't be said about other characters.

Trappers can be absorbed.
WWSins lose to wwbarbs.
Wind druids are extremely susceptible to stunning characters like trappers and BvCs especially because of their slow cast rate.
Necros are weak to high absorb es sorcs, but are definitely up there in terms of overall goodness.
Sorcs can be absorbed and are also weak to stunning characters.
Hammerdins/Liberators are fairly well balanced when played well. Ranged attacks can give them trouble. Good barb will also be a tough matchup with widowmaker and desync ww.
V/Ts can't deal too well with minion stacking. High light res necs, wind druids are problems. Sorcs can be a problem.
T/Vs also can't deal with stacking necs and wind druids. They will do better against casters than V/Ts though.
Mages are pretty well balanced. Windies and light res stacked necs can be a problem though. Stacked barb will also be trouble, since it's like a weak hammerdin after foh is negated.
Zons in general have weaknesses up the wazoo.
WW barbs don't really have any serious weaknesses.

Don't think theres much else worthy of mention.

SoaringSquirrel · Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 1549 0.00 Silvarrr

Great minds think alike? Wink

Wind druids have always been a force to be reckoned with, especially if wielded by a quick player who can use delayed namelocks effectively, and now they're even faster, more efficient duelers with the 163 FCR BP. Still, they're not without weaknesses, as I've noticed BvC's, trappers, Ghost WWsins, and kickers with MB/trap stun give windies a tough time. A smart boner could also potentially give a wind druid problems, but so far I haven't met one who could take down the level 92 that I use every now and then.

I would certainly put wind druids below BvC's and Hammerdins overall, but I'm undecided as to whether or not they are the third best duelers because Ghosts and necros are both very versatile and adaptible as well, but they have far more weaknesses that they can't overcome as effectively as a hammerdin or BvC.

I'll have to mess around a bit more in HLD someday when I can get back online to make a more final decision, really.

Mr.Snuggles · Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject:

You all argue against how BvC's own V/T's but what about Libbys or Judi's? A BvC if he knows what he's doing can take down a V/T but he's going to have some trouble. I currently have a V/T on L and only lose to a good sorc, mostly because I have no FotH switch gear yet. I have yet to lose to a BvC (Faced a BM BvC using a eth 412ed BoTD ghost spear). He won once, I won 7 times. And I was pure GM, and this was before I had my Grief.

Ehhh · Joined: 06 Feb 2005 Posts: 689 0.00 Silvarrr

BvCs do alright against libbys and judis as well, like I mentioned. Of course I'm not saying any of this is particularly easy, but I think a barb will win the majority of the time (assuming both are skilled duelers with good gear).

For the libby namelock teleporting on a wwbarb is usually a bad idea because the barb will ww. Desyncing works both ways in this duel. The ww barb can use widowmaker to get the hammerdin on the offensive and start doing short whirls if he expects the hammerdin to namelock tele or start a long desync whirl if he thinks the hammerdin will desync charge. Close duel, but I would put my bet on the barb.

By judi I assume you mean a hammer/foh (I use the term mage for this type). Once the bvc stacks against FoH, it's pretty much the same as dueling a hammerdin with weaker hammers. Pretty much the same tactics here, widowmaker + whirl randomly.

Let's keep in mind I'm talking about highly skilled duelers here. If we were talking about mediocre duelers, I would hold BvCs in lesser regard as a lot of them don't know what they're doing. I'm mostly talking about NL dueling too, because stacking against FoH without losing a lot of damage requires certain dupes.

Mr.Snuggles · Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:

Wank · Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:

A good hybrid pally and bvc are best chars, w/o a doubt BvC bein the betterer, and the hybrid being #2.
Sorcs=Absorbable and Stackable
Ele Druids= Maybe #3
PnB= Boring Twisted Evil

Trappers= Lame Cool

CS zons= Sorbable and Stackable.
Bowers= Raped by charge smite and ww.
Any other off builds are just no match for a good, and expensive BvC and good hybrid pally.