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 Forum index » Diablo 2 Discussion Section » LLD Discussion » LLD Guides
[30] Druid Summoner
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badguts


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject:  

Seems like a neat build, but are you using HoW or spirit of barbs the majority of the time? and if you switch them out, which chars do you use which on.
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ZSpoonZ


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject:  

This topic hasnt been touched in about a year Confused so I think I'll take a stab at answering questions here. Keep in mind I do not have a lld summoner. First off a +grizzly helm is needed because unlike most skills the druid summons get synergies from +skills items, they synergized each other before synergies even came out, although the bonuses were not shown. I guess the +skills synergy is kinda like how +skills helps boost the prayer synergy of cleansing. To answer question about the spirits, use HoW when u need the wolves to do dmg (ie to ranged ppl or melee ppl that dont have leech) and use Barbs (with grizzly) when melee ppl are leeching from your summons.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:17 am    Post subject:  

That is correct, druid synergies do NOT operate like other heroes. Whatever your current skill level is on it, is what bonus it gives to the wolves. So getting +5 to your grizzly from your helm gives you a great deal of extra damage on the wolves. In fact, each point of grizzly is worth at least 2 or 3 points of +spirit wolves. It is really that important.


And yes, this is a build designed to kill people with the wolves, not reflect damage. The damage reflection is really just more of a crutch when you are against people who can melee your summons to death. There are many duels where it won't help at all because they leech, but it might help you win 70% instead of 60%
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Heineken

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject:  

I have made this build, and i must say it is really strong. I manged to beat a level 60 baba(he wasn't that strong build but anyway Smile) and some other pretty good builds.
My helm is a 2 summon, 3 bear, 3 spirit of bards.

My main problem is cold dam, like frozen orb cuz it rapes my wolfs and slows me hard down. I think mb having deaths belt in stash for a switch would be a good idea.
I have infernostride(when duelling fire dam builds) and bloodfist in stash, so getting my hands on death belt seems like a good idea. Must just remember to switch back to string of ears when duelling another meele char Smile

Good idea clan iraq, props for that Smile

Edit: how do i fight hammerdins that just makes a hammer or two then run? he is as fast or faster than me so it seems np for him to escape my stun wave.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject:  

Paladins can simply charge out of stun. So theres no real hope of stunlocking a hammerdin, instead you're best bet is to widdle them down. It might take a *large* amount of mana, but you can spam wolves in their path and around them. If they ever sit still for ever a second, you can drop a grizzly bear in the sweetspot just to the south of them for a quick free hit. But really its more just a duel of widdling them down, like most classes have to do against hammerdins. They're a lame, boring build, and they duel lame, boring duels, for both involved

But you're definitely right, orb is a huge pain in the ass. The thing about cold damage is that at level 30, blizzard isn't ever an issue because of its nature, leaving only two skills you'll ever really see slowing your puppies; Orb & Hurricane. Hurricane on the windies just slows them for a tiny tiny fraction of a second, but it occasionally miffs their attack animation by putting them in FHR, which can save a few windies. But the only skill that actually slows your puppies down is orb. And orb is rightly a pain in the ass

I guess the main boon is that theres extremely few level 30 orbers, and most sorcs using it you encounter are level 40 pubbys with crap gear. And yeah, theres really no good tactic against orbers. You can chug mana pots and spam wolves on top of them like theres no tomorrow. If they ever get within range of you, your stunlock annihilates them, so it turns into a spamfest where the orbers try to widdle you down from a screen distance. And then all you can do is spam summons next to their feet and hope one of them lands a hit before an orb bolt hits it. Overall it can be a very slow arduous duel.

Glad to hear someone else had some fun with this build Very Happy That helm of yours is dead nice. I guess maybe some day I'll find a +2 summoning, +3 grizzly, +3 wolves, +2 HOW ~_~
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Zebb


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:51 pm    Post subject:  

Ah yes, This build was known as the "Trapper druid" in early 1.09 when i played it, later mixed in to be come the Shaman.
This build WAS quite hard to play back then. R/w is very important on this build, you have to be alot faster then the person you are dueling.
Since you can still leech from wolves / bears, you'll have to learn the art of recasting and retreating and reseting when the person you are dueling gets close. Easy in theory, very hard in practice.

For more information, Heres a link to Garbads 1.09 Shaman guide from diabloii.net http://strategy.diii.net/news.php?id=487 It may be outdated but there is still alot of valuable info.

Sadly my guide was lost in late 1.09 due to a database loss on the site.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject:  

Theres a few builds you seem to be referencing here.

The "Trapper" druid, which uses shockwave & grizzly for high level dueling back in pre-1.10 was a fairly popular build known widely as the "Shockbear". And yes, thats very much how this build works. R/W is not terribly important, if at all, since in LLD, opponents will be forced to attack you, typically in low range, and no amount of R/W speeds up your wolves. I think you missed a large chunk of the build however; as a backup the druid can pull out a Spirit of Barbs & Thorns Aura to prevent those that could leech from wolves / bears, so um, theres no 'retreating and resetting' when people close in on you. You can easily stand your ground against melee builds and simply spam shockwaves & spirit wolves. Its a much different playstyle from what you seem to think.


Garbad's "Shaman" build is much, much different; its a high level build aimed at combining a Shockbear & Firedruid, back in 1.09. It is not actually known as 'Shaman' like he always called it, but much more popularly known as "Geomancer".

Shaman, on the other hand, references a 1.10 high level druid build focused on the caster aspect of a teleporting grizzly/volcano build (incidently one I meticulously designed):
http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=610846&highlight=Shaman
A vastly different build than the 1.09 geomancer.

However, to put it lightly, Garbad was always a bit of a twat about it, and went on a big hissy fit that never really ended.



So um, no, remember this is LLD. R/W is not important for a level 30 summoner, not any more than it would be for a melee vs melee build. Its not a caster like a Boner or Windy who needs to be fiesty. Nor can most people simply leech off wolves, because A) Most llds won't have notable life leech, and
B) You have up to level 15 thorns & level 14 SOB, for 810% reflection at 1/10 penalty & 310% reflection at 1/6 penalty (both disregarding the normal 1/6 additional penalty since it is hitting minions).
which means that when an opponent strikes a wolf or bear of yours, he takes 132% of how much damage a player would take if they were struck.

Thus if a paladin zeals for 2400 damage, a player he hits would normally take 400 'exact damage'. If he hits a grizzly, he'll take 528 'exact damage', reduced further by %DR. Thus it takes at least 22% life leech to break even.

Honor packs 7% LL, and Death's Set packs 8%, but in level 30 duels Deaths is less common and Honor has fallen out of favor for robo weapons. It's actually quite common for LLD melee builds to have 0% LL, in which case your damage reflection annihilates them exceedingly fast.


The rule of thumb with life leech & thorns auras on minions is that for this build, opponents will take around 100% of damage they normally deal, after all reductions. As if they were zealing themselves. But life leech will work with a 6x bonus, meaning that 10% LL is like having 60% LL. They'll take or gain whatever the difference is, % wise.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:22 pm    Post subject:  

One other thing I'd like to point out here.


This build is not skill point taxing; Spirit Wolf is the only skill you need to max out, so with 1 point into everything else, it only takes 31 skills points, leaving 10 to be distributed for a rushed build. This also makes it a great non-rushed build.
But theres lots of options for the last 10 skill points.

HOW: boosts your damage per wolf from 442 up to 527.

Dire Wolves: boosts your wolf HP from 337 to 514, Grizzly from 3087 to 4712. This only really matters for how much damage thorns can return.

Lycanthropy: From +50% HP to +100% HP.
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Zebb


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject:  

I have to admit, i had a pretty good laugh there.

Having being the first, atleast on d2.net to have ever thought up the build of using high lvl summon with shockwave to damage people. Back before it was known about the sage lvl bug. Playing both lld and HLD variations of this build for ALONG time.

The build is played somewhat the same way. R/W is VERY important. Anyone with 1/2 a brain will NOT attack your wolves or bear when they see the thorns aura, the point in r/w is to distance urself from the person you are dueling in order to reset a set distance and allow your bear to go back to work. keeping them away from being hit or leeched off of.
The trouble with using a tele staff means u have no block. u'll also have to unshift to use tele waisting mass time and will likely get hit.

Using thorns again means no block. and low FCR meaning less chance of stun.

I'm unsure how i could make this anymore clear.

But hey, what do i know Rolling Eyes


As for garbad.. well hahaha.. I'll take the high road and not mention anything from when i ran Gimmeitam for a time.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:47 pm    Post subject:  

Did you even read the build?

It doesn't use Grizzly, it uses Spirit Wolves. Spirit Wolves have a much higher DPS and will stunlock an opponent thanks to how the tag on shockwave works. Hence if an opponent is attempting to strike you with an interruptible skill, you can merely sit still and spam shockwaves on him, and he will die to wolves. There is no running involved.

The thorns aura and SOB are simply BACKUPS in case of attacks like Zeal and Whirlwind that are both uninterruptible and have low LL builds. These attacks do not get a CHOICE about attacking your pets, since they deal AOE melee damage. An LLD summoner uses Spirit Wolves with HOW & Caster Gear against 90% of his duels, just switching to his alternate Grizzly with SOB & Edge against tough melees.

There is no tele staff involved and you obviously haven't played since 1.09. The shaman is a HLD build that uses Enigma and is a straight caster. The LLD Summoner does not need a tele staff at all. In fact, the shaman does not use shockwave or werebear in any way shape or form, and has 0 points in the entire shapeshifting tree. It is a completely different and unrelated build, closer to a Fire Sorc than a Geomancer

What exactly are you talking about? You shouldn't be rattling off like you know what you're saying if you haven't played the game in ages. Thats not how dueling works anymore. I've played since Diablo 1, and I've got a much better understanding of the mechanics
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:55 pm    Post subject:  

If you want to grasp modern dueling a little better, this is a shaman:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=a243RcXW3Eo

This is a Shockbear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gkBvYkz6LE

This is how Thorns works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXDJQb3h8Xc

Nobody has videos of Geomancer dueling, since that build went extinct with 1.10.
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Zebb


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject:  

I'm still very active on west. Lol.

It doesnt matter if you use griz OR wolves. Due to stun lock / block lock not working they way they did in 1.09, Anyone with remotly decent FHR will NOT be stunned to the point of being unable to move. in WHICH case they WILL get hits on you, meaning you will need to move.

Its obvious you have no clue sir. I have no clue who you are, i haven't heard of you but i've played long enough to know a bit of what i'm talking about and think a good many people on this fourm will vouch that.

I'll avoid going further into this since all its going to do is cause frustration over your lack of knowledge and aparent accusing me of being some outdated jabbering fool.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject:  

Listen. When a spirit wolf strikes a target who is under shockwaves debuff, they will be put into FHR regardless of damage taken. Thus having 5x spirit wolves and shockwave putting an opponent into FHR will interrupt essentially all interruptible attacks.

The point isn't to 'stop someone from moving' entirely, its to stop them from casting or attacking with interruptible spells, and stutter their movement. It works exactly the same as an assassin with mind blast and 5x fire traps.

There is no need to ever leave werebear form, a tele staff is pointless, and 'FCR' has extremely little to do with your chances of stunning. It only takes a single shockwave to bypass blocking in order to give the opponent the debuff, at which point spirit wolves will clobber them. You won't be exceeding 11 FPC on shockwave, which will only have 1/4 chance to hit & stun, thus a 44 Frames on average between FHR. Spirit wolves, on the other hand, have 5 wolves with 18 frames per attack, which is a stun every 14.4 Frames on Average. If your opponent fidgets by being forced to run to close the distance with you while already engaged by wolves, the 1/4 chance to block and 0 defense makes them eat him alive, and will 'stunlock' him.

Hence when dueling a caster character such as a sorceress, all you need to do is cast your spirit wolves at her feet, and stun with shockwave. Constantly interrupted, she cannot cast, and the 2500+ damage per volley rips her apart in a matter of seconds.

When against an interruptible character who only targets you, such as a kicker, you simply stand still and spam shockwaves, and make sure all 5 wolves are up. They cannot approach you.

Against an interruptible character that deals AOE damage that can kill your wolves, such as a fury druid, you simply alternate between spamming shockwaves and spamming spirit wolves at their feet, in order to keep your summon count at 5 while keeping a continuous interruption.

Against an uninterruptible character that only targets you, such as a jabber, you can either simply stand there and tank it out with the expectation that your DPS from wolves will kill them faster, or you can walk away while turning around and casting a shockwave to keep up the stun debuff, so that your FHR interruptions stutter their movement, and keep you out of range and them getting hit by summons. This is typically done at a distance of perhaps 1-2 inches from your character, in a pattern such as the well known "Dance of Dead" used by WW Barbs & Assassins; Walk in small circles and keep them getting hit / stunned

Against an uninterruptible character who deals AOE damage that affects your wolves, such as Zeal or WW, you can either overpower them and tank it out by spamming wolves on their feet like theres no tomorrow, and against zeal doing the aforementioned 'walk of death', *OR* you can switch to your damage reflection switch, which will eat them alive, because Zeal & WW will be forced to attack your summons whether they want to or not.


Believe me, I know plenty more about the game mechanics they you could begin to understand. You dii.net idiots have always been uppity, arrogant and elitist without any of the knowledge or understanding of mechanics that should come manifest.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:06 am    Post subject:  

Well, I recovered my password after basically brute forcing my own account, and every single char was unexpired... except my level 30 summoner. Bah humbug.
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clan_iraq

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject:  

Addendum:

Due to the way staffmods work, the recommended ideal pelt is impossible; items can only spawn with 4 tiers of skills (lvl req 0 to 18 for example, or lvl req 12 to 30). They cannot spawn tier 2 skills with tier 6 skills. And higher Ilvl items cannot spawn tier 1/2 skills at all.

So the ideal pelt is really +2 summoning, +3 grizzly, +3 how, +3 spirit of barbs (with 2 sockets and life mods)
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