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Level 18 Kicksin - Revolutionized
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Roy
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject:  Level 18 Kicksin - Revolutionized
Subject description: I got sick and tired of watching people butcher this build.
 

So I'd been toying with an idea of a level 18 kicker for quite some time - but I've only heard negative comments about how you get destroyed by zealots and how the class isn't viable except for beating conc barbs. Is the level 18 kicker really so mediocre? Or has no one bothered to build one properly?

Every level 18 kicksin I've seen follows the same general set-up.

Weapon: Crushflange
Shield: Swordback
Helm: Sigon's
Boots: Sigon's
Gloves: Bloodfists
Armor: Twitch
Belt: Death's Sash
Jewelry: Angelics

Voila. Cookie cutter kicker, effective versus pubs, pretty weak as a whole. Pump DTalon to 18, put a point in BoS, and dump the rest of your points into Cloak of Shadows. Standard stat allocation: Strength for gear / dex for max block / rest into vita.

Now, a few critiques. Crushflange is a good weapon, 33% CB and a nice strength boost, but it's limited by range 1. Swordback is an excellent source of Open Wounds... but it's got ZERO faster block rate. It's incredibly short-sighted to neglect block rate when you're using an interruptible attack against uninterruptible attacks. And come on? Sigon's set? Really now?

I'm currently building my own kicker, and though I haven't been able to test him extensively yet, I feel confident in my gear selection and stat allocation. Here's how it should be done:

Weapon: Steel Flail
Steel is a runeword that gives 25 IAS, 50% Open Wounds, and miscellaneous minor mods. When you use a Flail, you get Range 3 on your kicks.

Shield: Pelta Lunata Buckler
Since you get OW from your weapon, you don't need to waste this slot with Swordback. Instead, you can go with the logical choice - Pelta Lunata, which has the fastest block rate on any shield available at level 18. By choosing Pelta, you hit a higher block rate than if you used a VBSoD. Swordback doesn't hit any block rates period.

Gloves: Crafted Blood Gloves
Without Crushflange, we don't have any Crushing Blow on this build, and CB is the bread and butter for kickers. We can solve it with a simple crafting recipe:

Formula: Nef Rune + PRuby + Magic Jewel + Magic Heavy Gloves

These gloves give you 5-10% CB, 10-20 Life, and 1-3% life leech. Obviously we don't care about the Life Leech mods, but we do want 10% crushing blow with as much life as possible. I crafted a pair of gloves with 10% CB, 15 life, +1 Strength, and +1 Dex - level 17. Every last stat point helps out kick damage.

Belt: Rare Belt with 24 FHR
Since we're losing 30 FHR from the Bloodfists, let's just make it up with 24 FHR on our belt. The ideal suffixes for this build would be 24 FHR, 40 Life, and 5 strength. Mana as a prefix would be nice as well.

Boots: Rare Greaves with 10 FHR and Half Freeze Duration
To hit the next FHR BP, we need an additional 4 FHR. The easiest place to get it is from your boots: 10 FHR is a common suffix. Since we aren't using Death's belt, Half Freeze duration is another desirable suffix. That leaves one final suffix on the ideal pair of greaves: either 3 Dex or 20 Faster R/W, although neither are crucial. I use a simple pair of level 9 Greaves with 10 FHR and Half Freeze. Gamble with a level 42ish character, and you should get something passable.

Armor: Twitch - this is the obvious choice. Socket it with a PAmethyst for extra kick damage.

Jewelry: Angelic Ammy + Ring / Rare Stat Ring
The budget choice is dual Angelics. But kickers have such crazy AR to begin with that a second angelic ring seems like overkill. I am using a 116 AR 5 Dex 5 Strength ring on my kicker. Since Max Damage jewels don't work for kicks, pumping stats is the only way to boost kick damage.

Helmet: 3 Socket Great Helm with PAmethysts
It has a nice purple color. Kickers have low damage, usually relying on CB, so +30 Strength helps boost your kick damage.

Switch weapons: Shogukosha's Claws and Sigon's Shield - gives +2 Shadow Disciplines to your prebuff

Now that we've gotten the gear, let's do the stats. Get enough Dex so that you max block with your Pelta. Every other stat point goes into Strength. Pumping strength is the most effective way to boost kick damage, so we go with a pure strength build.


Skills: Max Dragon Talon (18 points)
One point into Claw Mastery (pre-req)
One point into BoS
The rest? Haven't decided, since I haven't bothered to do the quests yet. I'm thinking WoF for the stunning effect, but a Shadow Warrior with Psyhammer seems like fun too. But in a pure melee duel, neither of these would be allowed, so I haven't put much thought into it for now. I might just pump TS - if you can release a couple charges, it gives a nice boost to your kick damage.

Charms: 40 x 15 life charms. AR or mana prefixes are especially nice.

Now, with this build, you should have:
- at least 900 life
- max kick speed (7/3) and max trap laying speed (9 frames) with only one point in BoS
- the same FHR as a Bloodfist build
- the fastest block rate available at level 18
- the same amount of Open Wounds as a Swordback build
- a source of Crushing blow
- Range 3 kicks
- roughly 160-250 kick damage
- 3500+ AR, plus an extra Angelic Ring against defensive builds

I've dueled some pub zealots with this gear, and I haven't had any problems, even with a plain norm rush and a half-empty inventory. You have a big range advantage over a range 1 Long Sword (Cleg's), so just kick early, step back when the zealot locks into his uninterruptible attack, and repeat.

I'll add some strategy when I finish the build and have some experience dueling with it. But I figured that I would give out the crucial build information so that people stop falling into the trap of the Crushflange + Swordback crapfest.

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breakbeatz2 wrote:
2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


yarly
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:27 am    Post subject:  

u might as well try to craft ow belt for extra ow tho 10% aint that crucial but if u get fhr on such belt i would use it...
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Roy
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:32 am    Post subject:  

Yeah, I briefly considered an OW belt, but unfortunately you can't get 24 FHR on a crafted level 18 belt. Since Open Wounds runs for 8 seconds after it's proc'd, 50% should be enough for the build. If you replace the belt with anything less than 20% FHR, you will drop a breakpoint.
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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject:  

the main problem i see is you putting pamethysts into everything. wouldnt 20% ed jewels give much more damage? or 20% ed jewels with 4 str even. if i understand correctly, 1 str = 1% ed. so a 20% ed jewel comes out on top. especially if it has ar or some other nice mod

also i dunno if 10% cb will be enough, but worth a shot i guess.

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Roy
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:02 am    Post subject:  

waramp wrote:
the main problem i see is you putting pamethysts into everything. wouldnt 20% ed jewels give much more damage? or 20% ed jewels with 4 str even. if i understand correctly, 1 str = 1% ed. so a 20% ed jewel comes out on top. especially if it has ar or some other nice mod

also i dunno if 10% cb will be enough, but worth a shot i guess.


Using the assassin kick damage calculator:

With four PAmethysts in my gear, I have an average kick damage of 193.

With four 20% ED jewels in my gear, I have an average kick damage of 172. Even if I were lucky enough to find four 20 ED / 4 Str jewels, my average kick damage would still only be 184 - less than four PAmethysts.

I suppose I could find a 20 ed / 6 dex / 4 str rare jewel at level 18, and I would use that in my Twitch for style points. Unfortunately, that's an incredibly rare combination and would certainly cost a fortune... yet it just barely beats out a simple PAmethyst in average kick damage, 195. Of course, speculating about such a jewel is like discussing 8-14 damage jewels for zealots - they can feasibly spawn, but in all honesty, you're probably not getting one.

PAmethysts seem plain, but they are by far the best choice for this build.

I'm pretty confident that 10% CB will be enough for this character as well. The returns on CB diminish so rapidly that losing an extra few crushing blows over the course of a duel doesn't bother me in the least.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


yarly
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:36 am    Post subject:  

The cookie cutter build seems much much better to me.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject:  

Good guide ^^ I think I might try this build out Razz
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject:  

[quote=Roy] I'm thinking WoF for the stunning effect [/quote]
Wof doesnt really stun without mb swirlies afaik.
Good loking guide, a big + for not being cookiecutter.

Lol i pwn at quoting.

Last edited by Matroskin on Thu May 03, 2007 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject:  

Yeah, the 0 damage from a level 1 WOF won't stun without a swirly. I thought you would know this by now.

Also, since this seems like a melee dueler, range doesn't matter. Range 1 means your poopnent gets 1 extra swing before you get in range too.

CB > OW. By a long shot.

If you really want to use a Pelta, you might want to use crushflange and go with 0 open wounds. Don't forget that crushflange gives 15str as well as 33% OW. It also gets a socket while the Steel runeword does not.

Another good choice is The Gnasher. 20% CB, 50% OW, 8 str. It's like getting a swordback and half a crushflange all in one.

Belt - Yeah a good rare belt is best, but I thought it was already a staple of the cookie cutter builds. Why would anyone wear Deaths just for cbf?

10% cb just isn't enough. Chances are you won't proc a single cb over the course of the duel.

Edit - LOL I misspelled "opponent" as "poopnet" but it was too funny to change.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject:  

breakbeatz2 wrote:
The cookie cutter build seems much much better to me.

Sorry, but it's not. I've played on my friend's cookie cutter kicksins before, and the difference is night and day.

Quote:
Also, since this seems like a melee dueler, range doesn't matter. Range 1 means your poopnent gets 1 extra swing before you get in range too.

How many melee duelers do you know that are considering traps and shadow warriors? Seems like an Open dueler to me!

But in a pure melee duel, range does matter. Range 3 means that I can kick early and step back before my opponent locks in with his uninterruptible attack.

Quote:
Yeah, the 0 damage from a level 1 WOF won't stun without a swirly. I thought you would know this by now.

But it will put zons into dodge animation. Since a jabber also has a range 3 attack, you don't have the range advantage that you do versus a zealot. WoF comes in extremely handy here.

I'm not going to lie though: I wouldn't expect you to think outside the box, which is why your criticisms of my build are so far off base. And, should I go that route, why do you think I'd use only 1 point in WoF when I said I had 9 points left over?

Quote:
CB > OW. By a long shot.

That's why I have both.

Quote:
If you really want to use a Pelta, you might want to use crushflange and go with 0 open wounds. Don't forget that crushflange gives 15str as well as 33% OW. It also gets a socket while the Steel runeword does not.

Crushflange doesn't give OW - you mean CB. Also, if you bothered reading the guide thoroughly, you'd see that I list the strength boost as one of the few advantages for Crushflange. So, thanks buddy, but I didn't forget at all. And I could care less about an extra socket for a build that doesn't rely on Max Damage jewels.

Quote:
Another good choice is The Gnasher. 20% CB, 50% OW, 8 str. It's like getting a swordback and half a crushflange all in one.

And it also has Range 1, which is why you'll still get decimated by zealots. I've looked at more options than you can imagine here, including a Malice Flail (100% Open Wounds), Rixot's Keen (25% CB and 20% AR boost), and the Knell Striker (25% CB and a helpful 15 mana).

Steel Flail is the best option, no question.

Quote:
Belt - Yeah a good rare belt is best, but I thought it was already a staple of the cookie cutter builds. Why would anyone wear Deaths just for cbf?

To avoid getting frozen.

Quote:
10% cb just isn't enough. Chances are you won't proc a single cb over the course of the duel.

Spoken like someone who's never played a kicker before. In all of my duels so far, I've landed roughly 2 to 4 crushing blows. And that's all I need - you know why? Because after 2 to 4 crushing blows, your opponent's life should have reached the point where CB makes a marginal difference.

My setup allows me to get the benefit of a couple crushing blows over the duel, without having to sacrifice range for an effect that loses almost all of its potency after it's proc'd a few times.

Okay, you can re-commence your rage.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject:  

Quote:
But in a pure melee duel, range does matter. Range 3 means that I can kick early and step back before my opponent locks in with his uninterruptible attack.


I hope you're joking. I'd love to see you try to play the kick and run game vs. any melee character. You'll take far more hits with your back turned that you will get extra attacks.

Quote:
But it will put zons into dodge animation. Since a jabber also has a range 3 attack, you don't have the range advantage that you do versus a zealot. WoF comes in extremely handy here.


Just admit that you didn't know WoF doesn't stun without mb. By the way, jab is uninterruptable.

Quote:
And it also has Range 1, which is why you'll still get decimated by zealots.


Again, range doesn't matter in a duel vs. zealots

Quote:
And I could care less about an extra socket for a build that doesn't rely on Max Damage jewels.


An extra socket is either 30 more life, or added kick damage. and you said yourself that "Every last stat point helps out." when bragging about the 1str and 1dex on your gloves.

Quote:
To avoid getting frozen


I asked you why anyone would wear dreaths just for cbf. Kickers on East NL learned that Deaths is a terrible choice a long time ago. I assumed they had on ladder as well.

Quote:
Spoken like someone who's never played a kicker before. In all of my duels so far, I've landed roughly 2 to 4 crushing blows. And that's all I need - you know why? Because after 2 to 4 crushing blows, your opponent's life should have reached the point where CB makes a marginal difference.


It doesn't just matter how many you land total in the duel. It matters how many you land early in the duel. I thought you would have realized this.

Want to know something else funny? Remember how you used to make fun of my jabber for using an out of date VBSoD even though jab is uninterruptable? DTalon is uninterruptable too. Why are you making such a big deal about the FBR on Pelta?

Quote:
Okay, you can re-commence your rage.


Why would I rage over a 18 kicksin guide? I just think it's a horrible build.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:07 am    Post subject:  

Quote:
I hope you're joking. I'd love to see you try to play the kick and run game vs. any melee character. You'll take far more hits with your back turned that you will get extra attacks.

I've not joking, and I've already been able to do it quite effectively. It's a much better strategy than getting trapped in close combat until you die.

Quote:
Just admit that you didn't know WoF doesn't stun without mb. By the way, jab is uninterruptable.

Ugh. Seriously, are you just dense? Have you not been paying attention to this build?

Yes, jab is uninterruptible, which is why I already stated that I would step back when my opponent locks in. Guess what, genius? RUNNING ISN'T UNINTERRUPTIBLE.

I'll reiterate, because I know so well that you don't comprehend anything until you make people repeat the same premise five times until you can finally follow along (albeit at your slow, special-ed pace). Kicksins get destroyed by uninterruptible attacks. To counter this, I've given myself a range advantage over zealots, I'm considering WoF for jabbers, and I assume I can already beat Conc Barbs because that's what kickers do.

Quote:
Again, range doesn't matter in a duel vs. zealots

Again, it does. Of course, you don't have any level 18 melees (and if we're to believe your lies, you don't have any level 18's at all. LOL).

Quote:
An extra socket is either 30 more life, or added kick damage. and you said yourself that "Every last stat point helps out." when bragging about the 1str and 1dex on your gloves.

Great call chief! Let's sacrifice the range 3 so that we can get locked into close combat and get destroyed by zealots, just like all the cookie cutter kicksins that have come before us!

Serious question though: You're not really this stupid, right? You're just putting me on?

Quote:
I asked you why anyone would wear dreaths just for cbf. Kickers on East NL learned that Deaths is a terrible choice a long time ago. I assumed they had on ladder as well.

East NL is a mediocre realm, so I'm pretty skeptical of your assertion.

Quote:
It doesn't just matter how many you land total in the duel. It matters how many you land early in the duel. I thought you would have realized this.

Wrong again, my ignorant friend! It does matter how many you land total in the duel. When you're landing 12 crushing blows with Crushflange, you're getting no benefit after the third or fourth hit.

Quote:
Want to know something else funny? Remember how you used to make fun of my jabber for using an out of date VBSoD even though jab is uninterruptable? DTalon is uninterruptable too. Why are you making such a big deal about the FBR on Pelta?

Yeah, that was pretty hilarious. I'm just glad I could correct you.

In order to step back, you need FBR. Not a hard concept, but I've only repeated myself twice now, so I know it will still take a few more tries before you finally catch on.

Quote:
Why would I rage over a 18 kicksin guide? I just think it's a horrible build.

Because you have significant rage issues.

You would think it's a horrible build though, because, frankly, you don't really know too much about level 18 dueling. You don't see me giving out advice on how to fill out tax returns, do you? LOL.

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breakbeatz2 wrote:
2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


yarly

Last edited by Roy on Thu May 03, 2007 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject:  

My ring is better than yours - 106ar/5str/5dex/5life/23%cold res. I'm curious as to why you said 'great helm' rather than 'crown'. I've always liked the high defense build - sig trio + ancient armor.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject:  

Ahhh, I am indeed suffering from rare ring envy. Mine has the elite mods of +16 Stamina and 6 Light Resist. Although, in my ideal world, I'd find one with 40 Mana to help out the mana pool.

I opted for a great helm because the purple color shows up much better than on a crown. Since we're already pumping strength, we don't sacrifice anything to equip it (since this isn't really a defensive build). It's always fun to look like a noob before you slay your opponent. Style points ftw

Edit: I briefly considered a high defense build with pumped Cloak of Shadows, but I ultimately opted against it because I figured that the 30% AR boost from Cleg's would be too much to negate. Searching for 15 lifers with defense would be a bit of a pain, and I think I would get better results from mana, AR, or elemental damage prefixes.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject:  

When you originally posted your plan to lock characters with WoF, you never mentioned a jabber.

Quote:
Yes, jab is uninterruptible, which is why I already stated that I would step back when my opponent locks in. Guess what, genius?


You will give the jabber many free hits while you are "stepping back" with your back turned. You will only get a free hit if the jabber happens to be in dodge animation right at the point of engagement. After that, he will be using his uninterruptable jab against you with equal range.

It doesn't work.

Quote:
Again, it does. Of course, you don't have any level 18 melees (and if we're to believe your lies, you don't have any level 18's at all. LOL).


You're right, I don't have any level 18s. But I understand the mechanics of dueling better than you.

Quote:
Great call chief! Let's sacrifice the range 3 so that we can get locked into block rate and get destroyed by zealots, just like all the cookie cutter kicksins that have come before us!


Again, DTalon is uninterruptable. And again, walking back and forth during a duel doesn't work. And you're sacrificing much more than range 3. You're also sacrificing 75 life and 23% CB.

Quote:
When you're landing 12 crushing blows with Crushflange, you're getting no benefit after the third or fourth hit.


Of course you do. The benefit just diminishes.

On the same note, since your build will land it's first CB when your opponent is already low, you're getting nearly no benefit from your first CB.

Bottom line: When you have 3 times the chance to land a CB, your total damage from CBs throughout the duel will be almost exactly three times as much, on average. Both a 10% CB build and a 33% CB build will land CBs near the end of the duel when they do little damage. However, the 33% CB build will land many more at the beginning of the duel when they do the most damage.

Hope you understood me this time.

Quote:
East NL is a mediocre realm, so I'm skeptical of your assertion.


Yeah, hate to break it to you, but you're not the first person to realize that using deaths against characters with 0 cold damage is a waste.

Quote:
In order to step back, you need FBR. Not a hard concept, but I've only repeated myself twice now, so I know it will still take a few more tries before you finally catch on.


Again, stepping back isn't viable. And even if it were, once you get into the whole "stepping back" thing, it becomes non-melee and the zealer puts on his charge scepter. Then it's not good.
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