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 Forum index » Off-Topic Section » Off-Topic Discussion |
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For Intelligent Christians Only.
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| Page 9 of 11 [157 Posts] | Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Next |
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Virtuous
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1257 BNet Acct/Realm: *Vanished  0.00 Silvarrr |
If you were a woman, I would marry you. My feelings exactly, I usually take the side of the agnostic though. |
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Dao Jones
 Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
Because the ball falling and the milk jug existing have two criteria that belief in God does not: 1. Readily observable. I don't need 100% certainty to believe something. What I want, however, is "better than average odds". I can drop a ball or buy a gallon of milk if I so choose. If I need to confirm the veracity of these things I can do so. 2. Necessarily relevant to my life. Gravity and dairy products are aspects of existence which I make use of. Therefore, it is important to me to have definitive stances on these things. Believing in God is less crucial to my life, as is my opinion of French people. In these areas, I don't form concrete opinions simply because it isn't necessary to do so in order to live my life. I have opinions, of course, but the need to commit just isn't there.
An opinion isn't a belief. Frankly, I am of the opinion that there is some sort of higher power, but I am completely unsure of what it is. Perhaps it's the Christian God. Perhaps it's space aliens. Perhaps it's some sort of universal "force". Try as I might I cannot convince myself that *any* of these possibilities is probably or even likely. So, my tenative opinion is "yes, there is a God", and "God" is my placeholder statement for the uncertainty that comes of my (and the human race's) ignorance on the subject.
Whether or not I "believe" is irrelevant to my opinion on the social value of organized religion. Frankly, I'm of the belief that organized religion has done more damage to the world than it ever has done good. People commit horrible atrocities in the name of their deity, and religion has been used to enslave cultures since time immeasurable. But this has less to do with God than it has to do with man. Truthfully, there's nothing "wrong" with religion at all. The problem lies with both the people stupid enough to accept it without question, and the people who use religion to abuse power and control the masses. _________________ 
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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Goky
Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Posts: 1425 1.68 Silvarrr |
Atheists persecuted? When? Where? (Hint: "THEY SAID A PRAYER NEAR ME. MY RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED!" doesn't count as persecution) There's a rather healthy population of atheists and agnostics in America, and you seem to have some severe persecution complex. Feeling victimized is fun and all, but seriously, we all have problems. I know it's an anecdotal example, but I was a hardcore militant extremely vocal MUST CONVERT ALL CHRISTIANS TO ATHEISM guy all through high school, in a small town (pop: 4000) in southern Virginia in the heart of the Bible belt. Never once did anyone give me a hard time about it, aside from telling me I was being annoying when I would somehow interject my religious hatred into every single situation possible. For the most part everyone just ignored me. If you count that as "persecution", then you might want to look around at the world for a while. Honestly, so many militant atheists seem to think that everyone in the world is hardcore religious except for them and a select few (including myself a few years ago). For me now, looking around with a slightly less clouded head, it's pretty easy to realize that a very SMALL percentage of Americans actually actively practice some religion. Sure, they might pray when their life is going bad, say something about a "better place" when someone dies, and go to church on Easter, but if you really think most Americans that you view as "religious" actually live their day-to-day lives any different than you and have drastically different ideals from yours, then you might want to take a step back and rethink things. (Well, not all ideals. I don't think most people are convinced there's some sort of grand war going on and we're a few years from breaking out the m-16's.) Last edited by Goky on Wed May 09, 2007 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerkazoid
 Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
i was not trying to insinuate i was hanged or burned, i said "consequences" just bc i wont list specifics doesnt mean favortism with job or social niche is not there. ill remark on the neutrality of your retort, (wich i question)..... it seems you have experience with consequences in which you blame yourself. i can take blame; can you trust me on that? but it means ALOT to have a large part of your character not in common with a vast majority. And when someone goes "Well that IS interesting, but your wrong." when they brought up the question themselves, it is offensive. i have been turned down for lifes oppurtunities bc i was agnostic. i have also had people make "important" requests of me bc of their faith. my poor performance was "disapointing" and i was responsible for my "un-faith". i have had efforts ignored, good deeds refused and qualified advice (even in the work place) forgotten. favortism in general and i have seen and heard about alot of it, and all bc of god. fine. so i take a stance against the consequences i had to endure in the lords name(s).... (reformed to atheisim) and i want others to join and establish authority, secular and neutral to create buisness who (like, Walmart for instance), act with hidden personal politics shaping this country its called pushing-back and it wont be for truth. it will just be for what i feel is right, after all, what a person "feels" cant be wrong.  (and not things that violate human rights, duh!)
so when agnostics sit as bystanders and go "well what does it matter." it makes a difference, bc it will always hurt the under dog _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people.  |
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zarc
Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 865 BNet Acct/Realm: USEast NonLadder *fyarbeast USEast Ladder *fyarbeast1 -2.48 Silvarrr |
being agnostic is saying "i dont want to be wrong so im not going to choose until i have to" its a lame way of trying to cater to all the religious needs _________________  |
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Jerkazoid
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
i dont want to got that far on the agnostics, but it does get to that point at times. But for the sake of the argument the fulcrum im drawing is indeed a black and white scenario; would you choose an evangelical (or strongly spiritual) presidant or a secular one? _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people. |
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Dao Jones
Joined: 28 Nov 2004 Posts: 2959 BNet Acct/Realm: *Dao_Jones, Bi-Realmsual. 33.66 Silvarrr |
No, you're wrong. Here's three seconds of free research:
Here's the whole article. Go ahead and disprove that position. Provide me with absolute or even certain knowledge of the existence or absence of God. Can't, can you? So why is my willing open-mindedness and actual adherance to factual reasoning "lame" compared to your blind conviction in something you can't prove? Again - people should do a little research before they pass judgement. As an agnostic myself, I find people who DO choose their side in the absence of any real knowledge to be "lame". They believe or don't believe in a God based on guesses and supposition. With that sort of silly illogical "faith" you're actually worse off than if you just accepted the milk jug as your personal savior. I mean, at least you can drink out of a milk jug. And the milk jug can answer prayers, so long as the prayer involves being able to drink milk. But that's one more guaranteed prayer than God can grant you. 
Having an open mind about things > "unwavering belief" in something.
No doubt: a secular one. Secular presidents tend to think, whereas heavily religious presidents are content to just believe. _________________
The New LLD101 splash page (Props to Shieron) |
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Virtuous
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1257 BNet Acct/Realm: *Vanished 0.00 Silvarrr |
[quote=Sean]I agree 100% with Dawkins that the religious indoctrination of children is a form of psychological abuse. Where I run into problems is when I try to imagine how public policy should change to reflect this. It just seems very problematic on a practical level.[/quote] http://toddshammer.wordpress.com/2007/05/06/brainwashing-children-and-religion/ Some people sware by their souls that walking under a ladder brings bad luck. Some people would give their life if they were disproven that breaking a mirror gives bad luck. And teaching children things that have no evidence to back it up? There is no dispute on whether or not Muslims will give their lives for their god (9/11 for example). They believe whole-heartily that they are right. Just the same way Christians believe they are right. Atheists recieve criticism all the time; I think that's what Jerkazoid meant. (off topic) By the way, I'm doing a statistical survey of math texts to prove that the number 2 is the most common mathematical answer. 
_________________ East Ladder: *Vanished |
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TacoBell
Joined: 18 Jul 2005 Posts: 223 0.00 Silvarrr |
Weird, because I could have sworn that the Qur'an doesn't promote this type of violence. Last I checked it wasn't the religion that encourages this type of behavior, but rather the people taking passages out of context and/or misinterpreting it for whatever reason. |
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Virtuous
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1257 BNet Acct/Realm: *Vanished 0.00 Silvarrr |
Excuse my socially inherited bias. Even the bible says to kill all non-believers. |
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Jerkazoid
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
i think the texts people read was just written by people.. they can pick and choose, interpret, and all in spite of contrary evidance or democratic thought.... so whatever it says is irrelavent, its really the actions and consequences we can measure that make the religon (i ignore that idealist notion about faiths basis, or history being the crucial part.) i just saw the public broadcast on the daily show with the Mickey mouse knock-off talking with the littel girl about martyrdom. it was a private palestinian broadcast (which i dont doubt) and it represents a small extremists circle. but the force with wich they operate creates a bigger influence... (force wins) over the other groups who, (possibly), dont do much to stop them. we have what? 6 huge diff sects to chrisitanity all with differences? it doesnt matter how many times i read the bible, its still weird to have superstition open for debate, that has no basis in evidance, control policies the point is; you can have a few people who do bad things make choices that hurt SO many people, and over faith. faith, wich again has no basis in repeatable, measurable evidance (why choose 1 super natural over another?) and is open for arbitrary interpretation and can/will operate in spite of contrary facts. Such a greater danger then just saying "enough! im going scientific." Dao in the black and white scenario you chose secular politics. I choose the same (obviously) however i now fail to see how a carefull open mind will bring about that lesser evil. this is why i no longer take such an apologetic open discussion about faith, i was REALLY trying to work at being an ass to make the point as strong and real as possible. (perhaps a forum was the worst place to try that on) imo its time for some great change and i want to help people like Dawkings. i dont want americans to feel ashamed or carefull about establishing their beilef in secular living, buisness and politics. We have felt consequences bc its not a protected organized religon, its ok to push us back and ignore claims with a shielded umbrella of faith... and thats just wrong to me. though seperation of church and state was only implied in the constitution (EDIT*excuse me* Note; "establishment clause" under the 1st amendment , it does define the separation) understand that America was founded by those who saw how crazy politics got when it held hands with religon. ill stand up like the ass in my own colbert way and say it more; DO what you think is right DONT be obligated to appease the faithful Dont be ashamed to be Atheist and stand out against the spiritual fronts that try to guide our judgement. pick a side; for the supernatural or not. (the lesser evil?) i have a new god policy; Dont ask, dont tell. _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people. Last edited by Jerkazoid on Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mr_Bilson
 Joined: 25 Dec 2005 Posts: 257 0.00 Silvarrr |
number 1 is most popular 
_________________ ~sooperman~ |
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zarc
Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 865 BNet Acct/Realm: USEast NonLadder *fyarbeast USEast Ladder *fyarbeast1 -2.48 Silvarrr |
by "lame" i meant "weak"...make sense now? _________________ |
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Jerkazoid
Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 2902 BNet Acct/Realm: wscl 4.86 Silvarrr |
i really did me consequences.. though critisism happens as well. faithfull friends will declare evolution or science is just another faith and probably wrong anyway. And how dare they tell me what to beileve
the two are completely indepandant you cant argue against faith with science, so therefore you cant argue against science with faith
by the way the most common number is actually the number "C" and its also for "cookie", thats good enough for me <munch munch munch> _________________ Magic missile doesn't kill people, wizards who cast magic missile kill people. |
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dragonfire_god
Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 2117 BNet Acct/Realm: US East NL SC 2.22 Silvarrr |
Quote it? _________________ In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance My head is bloody, but unbowed. Its Not The Strong Who Survive But The Survivors Who Are Strong. The insanity of my sin bodes within. |
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go figure. (this is why i will act like such an 
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