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The Definitive Level 18 Throwbarb Guide
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Roy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject:  The Definitive Level 18 Throwbarb Guide  

Since I've been cutting back on my time lately, I figured that I would share some of my level 18 builds that have been so successful on E/SC/L. First up: the level 18 throwbarb.

Premise

Throwbarb: A barbarian that uses throwing weapons to attack targets from a distance, avoiding damage in the process.

I have used this barb since Day 1 of 1.11. Many people have attempted to duplicate it, but no one has succeeded. I've seen many cheap imitations on East Ladder, but they have all had critical flaws.

Now you can observe the prototype.

Stats

LLD101 currently allows Throwbarbs to go to level 20, but I find level 18 to be a much sexier level. One of the highlights of LLD is making a build as low as possible while maintaining power and viability. Consequently, I will base my stat and skill allocation on a level 18 build.

Strength: Base
Dexterity: Base
Vitality: All points
Energy: Base

Simple enough?

Skills

Skill layout:

Throwing Mastery: THE source of damage for a throwbarb. Not only does it give enhanced damage, but it also boosts AR (important for single throw) and gives a chance of critical hits.

Max Throwing Mastery for your level (13 for level 18, 15 for level 20)

Double Throw: Increasing Double Throw will increase your AR, but it will not increase damage. Your AR should be over 3k with decent charms and maxed throw mastery, so you really don't need this skill except to throw two javelins at once.

Put one point in Double Throw (DT).

Bash: Prerequisite for Double Throw. One point will suffice.

Double Swing: Synergy for Double Throw. Other than throw mastery, this is the only way to increase your throwing damage skillwise.

My throwbarb is norm-rushed, so I only have six points allocated to this skill. If you hell rush, you should be able to max Double Swing for more synergies to DT.

Max Double Swing for your level (13 points at level 18, 14 points at level 20).

The one leftover skill point
If you make a hell-rushed throwbarb, you will have one final skill point available. Where should it be placed?

Spear Mastery: Spear Mastery does NOT affect your throwing damage with javelins. However, it DOES affect your melee damage with javelins. I find it worthwhile to put the one remaining point into Spear Mastery for this reason - if you need to melee someone with your javelins, you have a small chance to hit a critical strike.

Add your final skill point to Spear Mastery.

Other options and their disadvantages

Shout: With the gear that you will equip, your defense will be too low for Shout to make an impact. If you try to equip armor with higher defense (read: heavier armor), your r/w speed will decrease, making you a handicapped ranged character. You also have to waste an extra point into Howl, Shout's prereq.

Increased Stamina: This skill actually comes in handy against certain ranged builds (spear necro, bowzon, charger). Unfortunately, there are better ways to increase your stamina other than using a skill point.

Double Throw: As stated earlier, your AR will be high enough that the extra skill in DT wouldn't make a difference.

Equipment

Weapon Switch 1: Double Throw

Rare War Javelins/Throwing Spears: Throwbarbs throw things. There are only two options here:

War Javelins: War Javs have the most average damage of any level 18 projectile. Minimal requirements as well.

Throwing Spear: Nearly as strong as War Javelins, but these can be dex-glitched so that they are invisible to your opponent. In other words, you can throw invisible spears at him. More on this later.

For pure damage in GM dueling, War Javelins are your best option. For pure strategy in GM dueling, Throwing Spears are the way to go.

To hit the fastest level 18 DT breakpoint, you will need to equip a javelin with 20 IAS on your right hand and a javelin with at least 10 IAS on your left hand. Other nice mods are Enhanced Damage, AR, +Max Damage, and Knockback.

To imbue rare war javelins that can have 20 IAS as a potential affix, you will need to use a level 36 character or higher.

I personally don't bother with Eth/Rep javelins because Double Throw shreds through stacks of javelins in no time at all. Unless you want to wait three minutes between duels, just use non-eth rare javelins. Also, the IAS/+Max Damage/Knockback combo cannot spawn on Eth/Rep javelins.

Weapon Switch 2: Single Throw

One pair of Rare War Javelins/Throwing Spears: See above. To hit the fastest single throw breakpoint, you will need 20 IAS on your javelins.

I find Eth/Rep javelins to be quite useful on Single Throw - you don't go through them as fast, and they pack a punch even without DT's synergies. Keep a non-eth set in your stash for use while your eth/set replenishes.

Two Socket Bone Shield of Deflection: If you're so inclined, you can shop a Mechanic's shield and spare yourself the socket quest. People suggest a VBSoD, but your mana bulb will be small enough that you won't really need any extra DtM. I would recommend a Rainbow Shield for all resistances. If you duel in the Arena, your main competition will be other level 18 Ranged/Casters. Norm-rushed throwbarbs don't have many sources for elemental resistances other than the Death's combo.

Socket your shield with two 20% Enhanced Damage jewels (Rusty Jewels), preferably with nice suffixes. Since DT's synergies don't apply to single throw, your enhanced damage will be relatively low (103% with ideal gear). In my experimenting, I find that two Rusty Jewels offer more damage on single throw. These jewels also help a ton if you are using eth/rep war javelins.

Edit: After using PPR's damage calculator, I learned that 15 max jewels are a better option in your shield than 20% ED jewels. Please refer to this thread: http://www.lld101.com/viewtopic.php?t=42196

Helmet

Three Socket Fanged Helm / Jawbone Cap with +3 Throwing Mastery

With base strength and Twitch, you will be at 35 Strength. Fanged and Jawbone helms are the only two that you can equip with a pure-vita build. I prefer Fanged for the look, but either one works just fine.

The best place for finding such a helm is Norm Cows, although Norm Chaos and Norm Act 5 should work as well.

Socket the hat with three 15 Max jewels (Jewels of Carnage), or 16-20 Max Damage jewels if you have them. You can also use Scarlet Jewels of Carnage, which can be as nice as "Adds 4-15 Damage." Despite what some people mistakenly claim, these jewels do exist.

Remaining Equipment

Armor: Twitchthroe (insert 15-20 Max Damage jewel)
Ammy: Angelic Amulet
Rings: Angelic Rings
Gloves: Death's Gloves
Belt: Death's Sash
Boots: Cow King's Boots (Sander's Riprap is an option for level 20 Throwbarbs, but you will need to adjust your Dex to make up for the loss of the stats from Cow Kings)

Charms
15 Life SC's: The staple of LLD's. Look for SC's with Mana (Lizard's), Attack Rating (Bronze), Stamina (Rugged), or Resistance prefixes.

Fine GC's of Life: 6 Max / x AR / 15-20 Life
Use these charms to boost both your throwing damage and your life.

Fine GC's of Inertia: 6 Max / x AR / 7 faster r/w
I keep a couple of these handy in order to outrun all my opponents. If you can't separate between yourself and your opponent, you won't be able to attack.

Fine GC's of Dexterity: 6 Max / x AR / 5-6 Dexterity
Dexterity adds to throwing damage, so if you can't get GC's with life, these are an effective subsitute.

With all your gear, you will have 60 Dexterity. Throwing spears require 65 Dexterity. Therefore, you will need at least 5 Dexterity on your charms in order to equip throwing spears. In 1.11B, if you need charms to use a piece of equipment, said equipment will not show up on other players' screens. This glitch applies to throwing spears - not just on your character, but also in the air. I refer to this as Dex glitching.

When you keep 5 Dex on your charms, you can equip throwing spears that are visible only to you. As is usually the case with invisible projectiles, they are much harder to dodge than visible projectiles.

If you use Double Throw while equipping invisible weapons, you will blink on other players' screens while you throw. If you use single Throw, you will stand completely motionless. I have PK'ed tons of people in "Staring Contest" duels and other assorted shenanigans. Dex-glitched Throw is hilarious. It's quite difficult for people to tell if you are attacking them, so use it to your advantage in duels.

Disclaimer
This guide was written by Roy for use only at LLD101. Do not copy this guide without my explicit permission, or you will face the consequences.

That's a good start for now. I'll post later with some dueling strategies and other relevant information. LLD Mods, please add a link to the sticky.

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breakbeatz2 wrote:
2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


yarly

Last edited by Roy on Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MilkmanAl

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:18 am    Post subject:  

Pretty cool guide! I just wanted to point out that Double Throw says it adds AR, but it actually doesn't. It suffers from the same bug that the Amazon bow skills do.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject:  

one question about ias: according to the weapon speed calculator, off-hand weapon ias doesnt affect throw speed. so is the 10 ias on the off-hand javelin necessary?
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Roy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject:  

Milkman, thanks a lot - I actually didn't know that bug involving Double Throw because I never bothered to increase it past skill level 1. Definitely a fact to file away for future reference.

Waramp, I'll admit that I was a bit confused with the calculator. I heard that off-hand weapon speed didn't affect IAS, so I simply plugged in the IAS possibilities and checked the FPS. 20/10 and 20/20 both hit the fastest FPS, while 20/0 and 10/10 did not. I went back to the calculator last night to double check, but it was the same.

Also, when I plugged in single throw (normal attack) and checked the table for breakpoints, I found that 60 IAS is the breakpoint. But if you calculate the breakpoints using a 20 IAS war javelin, it recalibrates the tables so that 69 IAS becomes a breakpoint. I'm not sure if it's buggy, or why this would even be the case, but I gave up on looking for breakpoints and just checked the frames manually.

When I had a HLD throwbarb back in 1.09, I used a Cruel Winged Harpoon of Quickness and a plain Winged Harpoon. When I used DT, the barb would throw only from the CWHoQ stack, and none of the left-handed winged harpoons would deplete. I don't quite remember what I did to solve this - it may have just been a matter of re-equipping everything.

But after that experience, I use two 20 IAS throwing spears on my throwbarb for symmetry's sake.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:38 pm    Post subject:  

sticky(period)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The Definitive Level 18 Throwbarb Guide  

Roy wrote:
LLD101 currently allows Throwbarbs to go to level 20

This is untrue.
Gheed in the Proposed level 18 (-20) LLD Ruleset thread wrote:

Level 18-20 ranged
Character level restrictions:
Amazon - 18
Amazon - 20*
Assassin - 20
Barbarian - 18
Druid - 20
Necromancer - 18
Paladin - 18**
Paladin - 19***
Sorceress - 18

*Pure bow amazons may be level 20. Any amazon who attacks with both a bow and a javelin must be level 18
**Pure chargers may be level 18.
***Any other paladin not using charge as a means of attack may be level 19

Skill Restrictions
Assassin - Traps, Mind Blast, and psychic hammer are not allowed in melee duels.
Barbarian - The only combat skills that may be used are double throw, leap, and leap attack.

This says that ranged barbs can only be 18.

In all arenas since that thread (the Proposed 18-20 Ruleset thread), the lvl 18-20 category has looked like this:
Code:
CHARACTER          LLD101ACCT       B-NET ACCT         WIN/LOSS           

LVL 18 MELEE
 1. Maiming            Gheed            *krajee_lld          0/0
 2.
 3.

LVL 18 RANGED & CASTERS
 1. LiL_Flames         Gheed            *krajee_lld          0/0
 2.
 3.

LVL 18-20 OPEN
 1. Death_Coil         fuh              *joeco_ol            0/0
 2.
 3.

That leaves the only possible place for a 20 throwbarb (even though they can't be 20 anymore) in the 18-20 OPEN category.
Quote:
OPEN: Any legal character of the proper level may compete. Unlimited recasting of Bone Armor and other skills is allowed

The only other competitor in 18-20 OPEN is Fuh's pnb nec Death_Coil, and him being able to recast bone armor unlimited times completely nulls a throwbarb. Lvl 20 Throwbarbs:
a) Can't compete in 18-20 OPEN because throwbarbs must be lvl 18
b) even if they could, are nulled by bone armor recasting pnb necs

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject:  

"Proposed" level 18-20 ruleset. Discussion died off leaving some matters undecided. If you feel like rekindling the flames, go for it. ARENA dueling isn't as active as when Steve (both of them) ran it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject:  

Also worth noting that level 18 R&C category was only added for the previous ladder season after my request. The only discussion involving level 18 throwbarbs was whether the level 18-20 Open class should be restricted to level 18 only - and it wasn't.

Quote:
That leaves the only possible place for a 20 throwbarb (even though they can't be 20 anymore) in the 18-20 OPEN category.

That was the only place that they ever could duel. Previously throwbarbs had to compete in the open class (from 18-20), but at least now they have the additional option of competing against R&C at level 18. To my knowledge, level 20 throwbarbs were still allowed in Open.

Quote:
The only other competitor in 18-20 OPEN is Fuh's pnb nec Death_Coil, and him being able to recast bone armor unlimited times completely nulls a throwbarb.

That's why I suggested a separate R&C category, with the understanding that Bone Armor recast would only be legal in open. This would give throwers a place to duel on even ground with spear necros. But if you take away recasting Bone Armor from the necro, you need to nerf the throwbarb as well as a compromise.

Gheed, do have any insight about the off-hand weapon IAS affecting throw speed? I've been searching through some other forums and reading some HLD throwbarb guides, but no one has even touched the subject of FPS.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject:  

Roy wrote:
Gheed, do have any insight about the off-hand weapon IAS affecting throw speed? I've been searching through some other forums and reading some HLD throwbarb guides, but no one has even touched the subject of FPS.
Only primary weapon ias and off weapon ias matter.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:55 pm    Post subject:  

In other words, barbs are a pain in the neck. Bottom line: use a 20 IAS javelin on your single Throw, and use either 20 / 20 or 20 / 10 on your Double Throw switch.
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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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Waramp


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:09 pm    Post subject:  

Gheed wrote:
Roy wrote:
Gheed, do have any insight about the off-hand weapon IAS affecting throw speed? I've been searching through some other forums and reading some HLD throwbarb guides, but no one has even touched the subject of FPS.
Only primary weapon ias and off weapon ias matter.


actually what he's saying is that the off-hand weapon doesnt affect the double throw speed. so ya just need a 20 ias jav and 50 off-weapon ias (twitch and deaths)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:35 pm    Post subject:  

Oops, I misread that post entirely as offhand weapon IAS - my reading skills are less than stellar at 1 in the morning. I've always been under the belief that only the right hand matters (like equipping Grief first and then Beast on BvC's), but I wouldn't presume to question the calculator. It recalibrates all of the DT tables depending on both righthand and lefthand IAS, and the breakpoints change accordingly. But I'm probably just messing up the calculations by including offhand weapon IAS in the total?

I'm going to play around with my barb and see how the 20 IAS / 0 IAS combo fares compared to the 20 / 20 combination I currently use. I want to see if I run into any problems throwing more of the 20 IAS javelin.

Edit: Well, with my unscientific testing, I found that the 20 / 20 javelins appear to be slightly faster than the 20 / 0 set. Basically, I stood in the blood moor and counted Mississippis until my mana bulb (43) was depleted using Double Throw with both sets of javelins.

The 20 / 20 set took about 11-11.5 Mississippis to deplete the mana bulb, while the 20 / 0 set took about 12-12.5 Mississippis. I checked the mods on the javelins, but there were no random +Mana mods. Since it's not the most precise test, I ran it about 10 different times, and I got the same results each time: the 20 / 20 combo came out a beat ahead of the 20 / 0 combo.

So, in other words, I'm completely stumped. On the plus side, the 20 / 0 stack threw equally from both javelins. But I will continue to use the 20 / 20 combo myself because my non-scientific testing suggests that they are a mite faster.

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2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject:  

those results could be because you are subconsciencously biase to the result which you would like to see. i'm pretty sure it shouldn't work like that, but your results seem to be in contradiction to how the game has worked up until now
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Roy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:44 am    Post subject:  

That thought crossed my mind, and I tried to keep it as objective as possible. If the game always worked properly, I wouldn't sweat it. But since Double Throw can be quite screwy, I'm happy to keep using the 20 / 20 combo if I think I throw faster. Even if rational thought suggests otherwise.

On the plus side, since the secondary weapon IAS doesn't matter, the IAS suffix isn't as crucial as I previously thought. In other words, rather than pray that you hit the trifecta of IAS / Slaughter / Knockback suffixes, you can use KB spears with good max damage on your offhand weapon.

Please tell me that Knockback on the offhand weapon would work with Double Throw. Since I never got a good pair of KB javelins, I've yet to test it.

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breakbeatz2 wrote:
2-15 isnt possible on level 18 jewels. He must mean 2 x 15 maxers


yarly
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject:  

well, ill keep on the lookout for some random kb javs if you want to test it
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