LLD101

[Torrent]

the ingame.de calculator shows .5 increments on jab attack speeds, which ive never seen on zeal or anything else. my question is, is there a noticeable difference between, say, 6 frame and 5.5 frame attack?

[fuh]

a faster ias frame is always better if u are not sacrificing lots of other usefull mods.. like life/%dr

[Jerkazoid]

the terminology used is simply promoted inaccuracies from differing interpretations
this is something i find very interesting so i will go into LENGTHY detail.

i will break down the motion with animation terms to help describe the action, i will also use DragonTalon since it is the BEST example of what i will be talking about

lets assume an 8 frame Single kick motion.
the sin has both legs on the ground, in order to kick she must shift her weight and lean so that she can lift 1 leg into the air anticipation frames 1 and 2.
she then extends her leg to perform the action (frame 3) and the HIT on frame 4 actually creates the strike of dmg. which also means on frame 4 (or maybe 3) even an uniteruptible attack has become uniteruptible, bc it MUST finish the next 4 frames.
her leg continues fwd bc of all the momentum and this follow through is frame 5,
then she must drop her leg down and return to a normal stance. frames 6, 7 and 8

in order to create a seemless sequence of motion for multi hits, 6, 7 and 8 are withheld till the final attack, as well as 1 and 2 during the repeated cycles
what happens now; we simply have frames 3 4 and 5 to work with to create the motion over and over again.

thus the motion as a repeating sequence is 1,2,3 and 4 for the first kick
then 3 (to get the leg back) and 4 5 for the next kick
then 3 (to get the leg back) and 4 5 for the next kick
then 3 (to get the leg back) and 4 5 for the next kick

etc
etc
etc

then 6 7 8 to return to the idle position after performing a few quick kicks.

so in sequence we have something a lot like this
kick 1; frames 1,2,3,4,5
kick 2; frames 3,4,5
kick 3; frames 3,4,5
kick 4; frames 3,4,5
kick final; frames 3,4,5,6,7,8

thus after the first sequence (bc frames 6,7,8 roll back into 1,2,3,4,5 for the initial kick) it can easily be described as 8/3,,, te same is true with zeal, and this numeric system was very easy to understand and thus is the norm....

but really its more like 5/3 *and then +3 more frames on the last attack

with jab, it was a double hit cycle. so an 8 frame attack thrust motion of
1 2 anticipation
3 4 5 action + follow through
6 7 8 return

turned into a sequence of two attacks
1,2,3,4,5
3,4,5,6,7,8

thus a 5/6 was also called 5.5

does this make sense?

id also like to point out that my numbers might TECHNICALLY be off,, but the principal of reusing the animation action frames i am describing is accurate.
jab was most likely something like
1,2,3,4,5,6,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,3,4,5,6,7
thus in 22 frames u performed 4 strikes. or 5.5 (and this actually is more accurate to what i saw bc occasionaly the frames did not match up with the same poses from 1 strike to the next, thus a unique or thrown out final frame seemed the answer)

so yes, if your hitting a new breakpoint in attack speed.. your getting a benefit in speed even if the terms are in .X format
the zeal attack tables are not in decimals just like the DT tables are not.. only Jab was broken down like that bc initially it was a double attack and thus very obvious you have 5 and 6,,
i bet the testers just divided the number of hits over the course of 60 seconds and came up with 5.5 and other various decimal breakpoints.

[Roy]

Wow, fascinating post - thanks Jerkazoid.

[Torrent]

jerky youre my hero. thanks for taking the time to explain that.

[dainbramage]

indiablo.de's calc displays the "follow-up (which are actually the first set)" frames-per-attack ONLY.

If you want to read the technical explanation, continue. If you couldn't care less, then your attack animation will last 6, then 5 frames (then the long hit at the end of the jab sequence)


Jerkazoid's posts was in general accurate, but a little off when it goes in-depth.


To start with; there are two different types of rollback animations: Complete and incomplete.

Zeal (on paladins and assassins) and Talon are two examples of complete rollback animations. In short, they reset the animation to tick=0 once they hit the action flag. It also means that the long attack will have the same duration (and therefore breakpoints) as a standard attack.

Jab and strafe are examples of incomplete rollback animations, which in general are much more annoying to calculate. Pretty much, the first attack is much like that of a complete rollback. The animation continues until the action flag, at which it will reset to an undefined value (individual for each attack). In short, in a long sequence, there will be a long series of similar attacks, then followed by an incomplete attack and then the long attack. Strafe is the best example here; an '8/2' strafe is in fact 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/9 frames, simplified to 8/2. The same thing occurs with jab; however, as it has only 2 'short' frames, rather than noting it as 6 frames (and subtracting 1 from the long attack), in instead groups the short and shorter attacks into the one group, averaging them to often give a decimal. Note that some calculations with incomplete rollback animations can give a situation similar to what is described by jerkazoid (look at crossbow strafe tables as an example). This does not apply to jab.


For much more in-depth and better explained information, refer to this thread: http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=42841

EDIT: Read the entire thread. The stuff on page 3 is probably the juiciest, page 1-2 is mostly incorrect as the guys actually tried to figure out what was happening.

EDIT 2: This page has some useful information as to complete rollbacks: http://e.domaindlx.com/JRichard/D2/aas22/aas22gm.html

[Jerkazoid]

ah nice!
interesting reads

ironically ozmodiar is me from that first AB thread. i remember when that came up, but i didnt follow it much beyond... very good stuff those guys can figure out.. (lol and when we still thought kick was 2 frames)

so wait drain,,can u help out on those number. i really loose track of the information as it becomes more technical.
a 7 frame thrust in jab turns into 6/3 +2? (been a while since i reviewed the motion) and a frame(s) is being thrown out or skipped? in #? if any? u said complete rollback so its not throwing out a frame, but that didnt seem to be what the motion showed me (vhs playback)
can u be more specific on the frames in # format? (sometimes i cant follow your notation) the 8/2/2/2/1/9 is the 1 just a partial attack the routine spits out to make the timing right?? then the 9 is the final "full" attack + settle motion?
also did this change in the patch when jab became 3 hits?

[dainbramage]

Jab is INCOMPLETE rollback (hence info on complete is mostly irrelevant. I included the 2nd link as additional info on complete animations). Zeal (except on zons and sorcs) and talon are complete rollback skills, none others come to mind atm (there may or may not be others, I'm getting rusty, haven't played for quite a while).

The notation used in the thread indicates repeated cycles.

8/2/1/9 implies a connected set, which will look like 8/2/1/9/2/1/9/2 etc. For only the one sequence, only one of the long numbers (the first one, despite the fact that it occurs at the end) is included. In short, a 5.5 frame jab will be 8/6/5/9/6/5/9/6/5/9 etc. One cycle would be 6/5/9.

I have little knowledge of the mechanics pre-1.10, as that was when I was teh n00b who didn't care. IIRC jab has been a 3-hit cycle since 1.07, and I didn't even play before LoD.

[Jerkazoid]

[meitou]

Yeah, isn't jab 3 hits?

Besides all the technical details, what I am sure is, harpoon jab feels way faster with 50ias than 30ias.

[Jerkazoid]